Enfin une news… Hélas leur réponse était prévisible… Ce qui m’énerve, c’est qu’ils auraient dû communiquer plus tot, ils savaient très bien que le jeu ne sortirait pas en mars et comme par hasard, ils annoncent la nouvelle à la fin du PM… Étonnant… 
Et le pire, c’est que nous n’avons aucune nouvelle date de sortie…
bon, enfin de la com 
l’update est bien long, c’est tout de suite mieux de parler.
Comme certains c’est pas très glorieux d’annoncer tout çà juste après la fin du PM. Mais si on a maintenant des updates réguliers çà me va pour Noel 2015 
Ok… donc là, après l’ouverture du PM pour pouvoir doubler la mise et annoncer maintenant que la prod est pas lancée mon coeur oscille entre le mépris du backer (a un point rarement atteint) et le ponzi caractérisé… voir un mix des deux…
Fallait quand même un sacré culot pour lancer un autre KS en janvier sans annoncer que celui qui “avec retard devait etre livré en février”… était meme pas commencé a produire 
[EDIT : lu deux phrases trop vite]
Du coup, les paris du genre Conan arrivera avant Tokaido se font de + en + probants
Une chose que j’ai l’impression de relever après la lecture de l’update, c’est qu’on voit clairement qu’ils ont lu ce qui s’écrit un peu partout, et je pense même ici, c’est déjà rassurant.
Effectivement ce qui l’est moins, mais relativement compréhensible, c’est qu’ils n’auraient pas du garder ce silence.
Au moins, ils le reconnaissent, à défaut d’autre chose.
En tout cas, reviens la question de la préparation avant KS, là ça donne l’impression qu’il y a eu des lacunes à ce niveau.
Certes, les figurines prépeintes ce n’est pas courant semble-t’il mais est ce que ça n’aurait pas pu être travaillé plus tôt ?
grisboui dit:Fishiste dit:Le truc moins rassurant, c'est qu'ils n'ont toujours pas obtenu la qualité attendue pour les figurines. C'est rassurant qu'ils veulent être certains de l'obtenir ; mais en fait, on n'est pas certain qu'ils vont y arriver... Et là c'est le drame (notamment, ils auraient du le dire avant d'ouvrir la possibilité de prendre des boites supplémentaires dans le PM, alors qu'ils étaient en présence d'un Xème sample insatisfaisant)
C'est le plus gros reproche que je puisse leur faire, ils ont ouvert le PM en laissant planer le doute sur quasiment tout et maintenant qu'il est fermé, ils annoncent tous les problèmes qu'ils rencontrent, l'augmentation du délai, l'adresse qui se retrouve bloquée...
"on"' savait très bien que c'était ce qui se passait depuis l'absence de l'update "peinture" promis pour début janvier. J'ai personnellement refusé toute demande d'ajout à mon PM. Et c'est limite si on ne s'est pas fait insulter en tentant de faire comprendre que la prod n'était pas encore lancée et rien ne serait livré avant septembre...
Au moins, ils ont communiqué. C'est bien. Même si 3-4 semaines trop tard qui vont laisser un goût amer pour certains.
Ils s'engagent à communiquer régulièrement... on verra bien. Mais c'est beaucoup plus dur à faire qu'à dire. S'ils y arrivent, l'expérience prouve que rien n'est impossible à rattraper. Mais il va falloir apprendre à écrire court: les longs volumes comme aujourd'hui, ça peut passer très occasionnellement (quand il faut noyer un poisson par exemple) mais c'est indigeste et peut vite devenir vomitif/contre-productif.
Sinon, ce ne serait pas plus rentable/simple/sûr/efficace de s'offrir les services d'un contact sur place?
Moi, je considère que leur update de janvier est un mensonge par omission et qu’il ont sciemment abusé ma confiance de backer.
J’espère recevoir un beau jeu un jour mais je ne supporterai plus jamais Funforge.
Je leur souhaite tout le succès possible à l’avenir mais ils ont perdu un client régulier par leurs com opaque et limite malhonnête.
Hahaha, j’ai eu un vieux rire gras et jaune quand j’ai lu cet Update. On a échappé au pire avec l’annulation du KS de ZNA à mon avis.
Pipoboy dit:Moi, je considère que leur update de janvier est un mensonge par omission et qu’il ont sciemment abusé ma confiance de backer.
J’espère recevoir un beau jeu un jour mais je ne supporterai plus jamais Funforge.
Je leur souhaite tout le succès possible à l’avenir mais ils ont perdu un client régulier par leurs com opaque et limite malhonnête.
Je pense que tu n’es pas le seul.
Perso, je préfère avoir un jeu qui arrive avec un an de retard mais de bonne qualité, qu’un tâs de plastique immonde.
Si ils ne tiennent pas leur engagement sur les news, ça va encore râler.
Bon courage à eux, y a du client à reconquérir là!
ThierryT dit:
Sinon, ce ne serait pas plus rentable/simple/sûr/efficace de s'offrir les services d'un contact sur place?
Tu es sérieux là, ils travaillent sans intermédiaire local sur un projet de cette envergure ?
ThierryT dit:Sinon, ce ne serait pas plus rentable/simple/sûr/efficace de s'offrir les services d'un contact sur place?
Ca m'interpelle moi aussi. Quand tu fais produire en Chine, tu t'arranges pour avoir une personne de confiance sur place.
Comment c'est possible de travailler efficacement et rapidement en s'envoyant des colis toutes les semaines par avion ?
grisboui dit:ThierryT dit:Sinon, ce ne serait pas plus rentable/simple/sûr/efficace de s'offrir les services d'un contact sur place?
Ca m'interpelle moi aussi. Quand tu fais produire en Chine, tu t'arranges pour avoir une personne de confiance sur place.
Comment c'est possible de travailler efficacement et rapidement en s'envoyant des colis toutes les semaines par avion ?
Sur du carton, ou du 1000-2000 ex d'un truc tout basique, ou pour un débutant (auto editeur) ca me choque pas trop ca peut se faire avec des usines "a management occidental"... mais là... j'ai un doute quoi...
Contact trouvé :
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/doria-roustan/93/209/22a
Des Doria qui travaillent chez FunForge, ça ne doit pas courir les bureaux ^^
ThierryT dit:... Mais il va falloir apprendre à écrire court: les longs volumes comme aujourd'hui, ça peut passer très occasionnellement (quand il faut noyer un poisson par exemple) mais c'est indigeste et peut vite devenir vomitif/contre-productif...
Doria Funforge dit:From now on I will be posting weekly updates, shorter ones,...
bon perso, je ne trainait plus sur la page du ks ni sur ce topic et du coup je n ai rien vu venir, j avoue
pour moi le PM annoncait la livraison prochaine du jeu et je tablais sur un mi mars - debut avril pour la livraison…
et là BIM, mega douche froide 
du coup je trouve que c’est aussi tres tres limite de lacher l info une fois que le PM est cloturé, à la limite vraiment de la malhonneteté, car il ne s’agit aps ici d’un souci de dernière minute. Si la productionn’est meme pas lancée, je commence a me poser la question sur la viabilité du projet.
Mes 2 premiers KS étaient Robotech et Tokaido, ben ca donne vraiment pas envie de poursuivre ce genre d aventure. Armymals était à peine mieux, niveau communication, mais au moins on a reçu la 1ere vague avec un tout petit retard. Espérons que Conan redore le blason du KS en ce qui concerne les délais de livraison et la communication (pour l instant c’est du tout bon), sinon je crois que j’arreterai de passer par le crowdfunding où les editeurs nous prennent vraiment pour des cons.
Et Funforge, c’est désormais terminé pour moi, jusqu’à ce qu’ils aient fait leurs preuves
Je n’ai (hélas!) pas le temps de suivre le forum tous les jours, et quand j’ai découvert tous les messages depuis mon dernier sur le forum, j’ai été un peu agacé de voir certains défendre aveuglement FF à coup de remarques du genre “c’est normal qu’ils ne donnent pas de réponse sur un site sans lien avec la campagne” (vous avez raison, mais mon agacement en pointant ce commentaire, vient surtout de renvoyer vers KS alors qu’ils n’y commentent… commentaient plus) ou de “vous avez financé un jeu, pas des commentaires” (et là on vous assez bien répondu sur ce forum).
Mais bon l’agacement s’est atténué quand j’ai vu l’update de FF.
Alors déjà un on est maintenant clair: Il y avait bien un problème de communication. FF le reconnait lui-même. Remarque, ils ne l’auraient pas fait, je vous aurais ressorti leur commentaire du 8 octobre où ils reconnaissent qu’ils doivent faire de l’effort sur leur communication.
Ceci étant dit… et bien attendons.
Dommage qu’il faille attendre un temps indéfini, mais la surprise n’en sera que plus grande.
Tant mieux que FF vise la plus haute qualité possible.
Et espérons que la communication soit vraiment régulière.
Et bienvenue à Dora et félicitations à Philippe !
Quelqu’un aurait-il l’amabilité et la gentillesse de reproduire ici le contenu de l’update ?
Merci d’avance de la part d’un raccroché au wagon
More dit:Quelqu'un aurait-il l’amabilité et la gentillesse de reproduire ici le contenu de l'update ?
Merci d'avance de la part d'un raccroché au wagon
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fu ... ect_update
Doria de FunForge est dans la TTTV de Samuraï Spirit si je ne me trompe pas.
Au delà de tout ça et sans rapport avec le KS, félicitations à Philours
grisboui dit:More dit:Quelqu'un aurait-il l’amabilité et la gentillesse de reproduire ici le contenu de l'update ?
Merci d'avance de la part d'un raccroché au wagon
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fu ... ect_update
Excuse moi grisboui, j'ai oublié de préciser que si je demandais ça c'est que l'accès à ces update n'est possible que pour les backers du projet.
Merci de ta réponse néanmoins.
Désolé, quand t’es connecté, on ne voit pas que c’est bloqué.
Production status update
44 Comments
Like
67 likes
Dear pledgers,
First, let us apologize sincerely for not communicating enough on this page, or through other channels. We are aware that you are getting worried about how the project is going on, especially because we announced a delivery date around mid-February.
Unfortunately, we are very sad to announce that the delivery is getting delayed, again. Because we understand how frustrating this might be, we don’t want you to feel that you are been kept in the dark anymore. We realize now that we haven’t been present enough for you, that we didn’t explain enough what kind of process we were going through and what kind of obstacles we encountered on our way. This is why we wish to explain to you what is delaying the production, in details.
Some of you might not be familiar with the fabrication process publishers (especially board games publishers) go through. In order to be completely transparent, and to let you enter deeper in the process, we feel that it is important to show you exactly what it is we have been doing. We know that imagination can go wild but please try to limit yours, and to not imagine the worst of the project or the worst of us.
Before getting into the details, be assured that the project will see the light of day, we are up and running, not sipping margaritas on a beach, bankrupt nor dead. The games will be delivered. Cancellation of the project has never been and will not be consider.
Tokaido Collector Edition is all about quality
Since the beginning of the project, delivering the best quality possible has been our watchword, our main concern and main challenge. We want this game to be perfect, nothing less.
As you already know, we are a publishing company that has been making games for more than 7 years now, constantly growing at our own paste, making our way through the market and always focusing on the quality of our games. Our motto has always been to offer great games, with strong themes at the best quality.
This project represents a lot to us as we see it like a masterpiece born from a joined effort from both you and us, to create a beautiful and unique version of a delightful game that united an entire community.
Even though the board games fabrication process is well known to us, this is the first time we are including miniature, painted ones no less, in one of our games. Producing that kind of figurines for the first time implies to learn in action. Like anything else, theoretically knowing is not enough when it comes to doing, as you always discover things you couldn’t know. We didn’t escape that rule, and found many obstacles in our way. Some of them where linked to general miniatures fabrication, some were directly linked to the Tokaido models, some came from the collaboration with manufacturers.
We completely understand that this might not be an admissible excuse for you, and that being “in the dark” as you are you might not fully visualize the time and energy we are spending each day on the realization of the project. We have been and still are working hard to make things happen, and to make them happen as soon as possible. Despite our best efforts, time is incompressible and none of the several production steps can be overlooked nor skipped.
This is where we are at: we are making things happen, but they happen at a much slower paste than we expected. We want to offer you the best quality we can, and nothing less, and that is why we are late.
News are not all bad
If the miniatures are delaying the final production, all of the other elements are completely finished and ready to be printed.
> Matsuri rules are written, translated and their layout is done. They are ready for you to read them and find out how they will change Tokaido game experience.
> The Matsuri cards are also all done: illustration, effects and lay out, ready to go.
> The original soundtrack is complete.
> The bigger board, punchboards and other components are done.
> Shogun characters have been named, and their tiles have been finished, including their special abilities!
Early next week we will post a new update with all the above elements for you to discover. You will be able to read the Matsuri expansion rules, cards and effects. You will also discover the new characters (Shoguns) names and special abilities (even though there has been some guessing going on in the comments).
We hope you will enjoy discovering everything.
Better communication
As said previously, we realize that we haven’t been here enough to answer all of your questions, doubts, concerns and suggestions. Until now, we were always waiting to have a lot of elements to show to you at once, but this was a mistake especially because those elements always arrived later than we hoped for. We want to fix this.
We realized, better later than never, that waiting too long, even for new elements, was a mistake and that our community management was not even close to being enough. That is why I have been missioned to keep you informed, to answer your questions and comments. “I” being Doria from Funforge team.
From now on I will be posting weekly updates, shorter ones, to keep you in the loop and really include all of you in the final production steps. I will also answer both comments and private messages daily on the KS project page. Just keep in mind that there might be a time difference between where you are and where we are (France), and that sometimes, I do have to sleep and eat (not only cheese and wine with baguettes).
Just for information though, I will not be up and running before next Tuesday (March 3rd) as Funforge is attending to the Festival International du Jeu de Cannes, and that I will be out of office from this Wednesday until next Tuesday. If you write a PM or a comment, note that I won’t be answering right away but that I will once I get back.
And because this is a great and happy news, we would like to officially announce that Philippe, Funforge’s CEO, was gifted with a baby girl just a week ago. Having now to attend to the needs of his little one and therefore less liberty to do overtime, this one of the reasons I will be the one answering your comments/messages and keeping you updated.
Now I invite you to continue reading this update to learn of the details of this long quest towards high quality components and the reasons of the delivery delay.
Details of the delay
The process of miniatures production, or any game elements takes time and this is basically how it goes:
1) We make a request for a certain product with all the technical characteristics needed (defining quality, form, material, colors, detail level quantity etc.)
2) The factory sends back to us questions or answers to precise our wishes.
3) We answer with more questions.
4) And this goes on for days.
5) After both we and the factory agree on something we respectively want and can realize, the factory prepares samples which can take between 1 and 3 weeks (depending on the request).
6) Then, once samples are done, the factory (in our case based in China), sends us the samples which can take between 1 and 2 weeks to arrive. Therefore receiving 1 sample from 1 request can take up to a month.
7) Then and only then, once the samples are in our hands we do see if they correspond to our expectations. If they don’t we send pictures and instructions for changes to be made on the element: type of plastic, color, level of details, painting results, process etc.Follows another exchange of several emails as explained before.
9) When we agree once again, the factory makes new samples (3 weeks) and by the time we receive it, 1 month past.
And this goes on and on until we receive the perfect sample. The one which we will be 100% confident that this is the quality we will have as a final result for the entire production.
Now that you know how long this simple process takes, I will tell you what problems we have encountered during the design of the miniatures and coins.
Changing factory
This past summer we had to change factory for the production of all our games because our previous manufacturer made quality mistakes that were unacceptable during the fabrication of one of our games (Quantum). We found a new partner that offered us a high quality work on our last release Samurai Spirit (by Antoine Bauza). Back then, we already had started working on the figurines with a factory in China. While we were making the transition towards the new factory they sent us a lot of samples of everything they could produce. That is when we discovered that in addition to the excellent quality of other components (paper, carton, wood and dice) they could also produce beautiful highly detailed figurines. After long and hard thinking, we decided to move the production of the figurines towards the new factory as well. As it was planned that they would produce the rest of Tokaido elements (rules, paper, punchboards, cards etc.) it appeared that having everything produced at the same factory would ease the logistics.
This change was our choice and we completely assume it, but this implied to start over the work on the figurines, even if we already had something to show for what we were expecting. We are confident that this change was a good thing to do in the development of the project, both in terms of final quality and logistics even though it did slowed us down.
Figurines production process
We always talk about the figurines production process but didn’t really describe what this process is. In order to obtain the quality we expect we have to go through different steps that don’t always depend on us and that cannot be overlooked if we want to guarantee the result. Between the time difference, the language barrier and some misunderstandings that can get in the way, things can be very slow even if we wish them to go faster.
How do we make the miniatures?
Before entering into the details, it is important to precise that producing painted figurines is nothing like producing unpainted figurines. The entire production process changes just because the figurines are painted. Numerous pre-painted figurines with a really high quality and as part of a full game cannot be compared to figurines that are worth 300$ the unit. The tools or process used are not even comparable. The figurines we are producing will be PRE-painted and NOT hand-painted, and they are made for a really fair cost allowing us to sell the final game to a reasonable price. Making pre-painted at a fair cost doesn’t mean that the expectations and the quality shouldn’t be high.
1) In order to model the figurines in 3D we need to have the final characters designs in color. For Tokaido, most of them were already made (the character tiles of Tokaido base game and Crossroads) but we were still missing the 16 new characters. Creating 16 new characters represents a lot of time as it is as many characters as both the base game and 1st expansion put together.
2) While Naïade was working on the new designs, Charles, our 3D artist, started to model the “old” characters. Finalizing each uncolored 3D model takes approximately 3 full days of work. Modeling 35 figurines took approximately 105 days which almost represents 4 months. These models made without any color, were the object of numerous samples from the factory, in order to check the plastic quality (which took several weeks as well).
3) In order to prepare the painted version of the figurines, the 3D artist then had to “paint” all 35 3D models to send to the factory to proceed to numerous verifications of the number of colors, the type of colors used, the possible result depending on plastic used etc. Finalizing the painting of all the models took almost 2 months. And this does not mean that figurines were actually painted, this means that the 3D colored versions were approved by both us and the factory. The final 3D colored version we sent out to the factory for actual trials of real painting on real figurines were the pictures you can see below.
4) Then, we chose 1 model that would be used by the factory to make samples of the final painted and unpainted figurines. They sent us several samples, that didn’t reach the expectations we had (and still have) before they finally sent us a really well made sample, well produced, well painted that was exactly what we hoped for. This took almost 3 months of exchanges back and forth to make sure that the colors were right, that the painted parts where defined enough, and for trying different color effects etc.
Then we received a hand-painted figurine (not pre-painted), made in a limited quantity, and through a process that would not be the process used for the entire figurines production. Getting on the same page with providers takes a little adjusting between our exigencies and their possibilities. We were happy to receive a sample showing that the factory and us were finally there.
5) After approving the result of the hand-painted sample, and telling the factory we were expecting that quality for the entire production, they started to work on making the tools and installing the process for the entire production. They tried different ways of producing the figurines and sent us samples each time to show us the result. It is normal to see slight changes between a unique hand-painted figurine and a mass-production figurine in terms of details but the different samples we received were never even close to the sample we approved. Things needed to be adjusted for a mass production.
------ a. First, they discovered that they had to change the design of the figurines bases. Indeed, while they were working on the color bases, that will be clipped under the minis to identify your figurine while playing, they realized that because of the characters feet placement they couldn’t use the mechanism we designed. We worked together on searching a proper way of designing a new base that would not damage the figurine and that would work as well as the previous one.
As we first made it, the clip mechanism was in the middle of the base, but in order to assemble a figurine and its base, they have to clip the character feet into the base and most of them are placed right in the middle. It was not possible to have both the clip of the feet in the middle going down and the clip of the base going up.
They suggested another way of doing the clipped based with the same result. The idea was to clip the color base to the character base with a circle clip instead of a pin. You can look at the drawing bellow to see how this will work.
We requested samples of these new bases which you can see in the picture below (they are not colored).
------ b. It also appeared that the quality of painting we were expecting and which we approved on the hand-painted sample, was not reachable through a mass production process with that many different colors and that many details on each figurine. In order to obtain precise paintings, with no risk of one color overlapping on another, we had to change the molds entirely.
Figurines can be either made in one piece, either in several pieces then assembled. We originally planned the Tokaido minis to be in one piece but it appeared that we had to make them in several pieces, in order to apply the paint more precisely. We had to design with the factory a very complicated mold, depending on which part of the minis should be painted in which colors, and in which order before being assembled. You can check out the picture below to see the different parts of the figurine sample before being assembled. All of those parts are made in only one mold. This precise work on the molds and producing all the parts of the minis separately ensure us to have more detailed sculpts and a proper painting.
Now that the base and molds challenges have been resolved we are doing the same precautious and precise work on the figurine paintings. We asked different samples of painted figurines and for now we didn’t receive one that reached the final result we are aiming for.
The last time we received samples was last week, which was way later than we hoped we would receive them. Those were the samples we were waiting for before writing this update as we wanted to let you know, and to show you, how things were going with awesome pictures of the final painted samples. If the samples we received would have been as we expected them to be, this update will still be talking about a delay, as we are already mid-February, but could also be announcing that we are ready to launch. Unfortunately, the samples are not what we expect them to be, and as said previously, we will not settle for less than the best.
Every details matter
What I am trying to convey here is that we place an extra care in particular in EACH one of the figurines but in general in EACH one of the game components.
For example, the Coins were also challenging. Once we sent out our request, it took several weeks before we could even see a picture of what the factory could do before receiving it even later. We were aiming for an “used” effect like the one you can see on coins that have lived through out an infinite number of pockets and wallets. The first sample looked “clean” but kind of fake (see image below 1st sample). After asking for changes we received a second one that looked better, older, but still pinkish and was feeling very light (see 2nd sample). The third one was finally the good one, heavier, a little thicker, in a “goldish” used metal and was exactly what we wanted (see 3rd sample). This alone took us over 3 months of work and patient waiting.
Of course, we are not doing things one after the other, or this would be endless. Nevertheless each component takes a lot of time to make, and we are not fully in control of this time. Tokaido Collector Edition, is our main project and we are doing the best and fastest as we can to finish it and deliver it to you in the best delay.
But again, we will not sacrifice quality for delivery timing. And we do believe that receiving something “ok” or even “correct” after being invested in this project as much as you have been is not something you want either. You are right to be expecting this game to be no less than the best it could ever be, and this is also what we want for the game and for you, as a thank you for your trust and support.
Working things out
As I said earlier, we are truly sorry for postponing again the delivery date, but we still need to wait for the factory to send us new samples of the painted figurines that we hope will satisfy us. As soon as this is done, we can launch production of the entire batch of figurines and send all the other components that are already ready to go.
The Chinese New Year celebrations started last week and will last until beginning of March, therefore we will not be able to receive any news from the factory until they start working again. Only then would we be able to have their feedback, and a date for the new samples. We already sent all the instructions for all the changes to be made, and are pressuring them for a faster reaction. I want to repeat that we assure you that we will deliver, and we will deliver a great and beautiful game, the closest to perfection we can get.
We apologize again for the frustration this update may cause, and for our lack of communication. As said before, we are well aware that our community management failed you and that is why I have been missioned to take over. I will answer as precisely as possible and as often as I can. Please keep in mind that I do stop working sometimes for vital needs, healthy activities and that time difference might be tricky.
Also, I am taking over but I won’t be completely up and running until next Tuesday (March 3rd) as we are attending to the Festival International du Jeu de Cannes, from Wednesday to Sunday and are only coming back on Monday. I will start answering all comments and messages once I get back.
I thank those of you that made it all the way down and through this long long update, for their attention and their time. And I also thank you all for your patience, understanding, and support from the very beginning.
I will be back next week with a new update, with some things to show and discover!
Have a wonderful week,
All the best,
Doria
Avoir sciemment attendu la fin du PM pour annoncer le report est d’une fourberie rarement vu j’avoue.
On s’en doutait quand même un peu mais c’est assez osé quand même.